I just yesterday, starting reading on the Emergent Church, and for the very first time, read and listened to Brian McLaren. I must say, I am impressed and praise God for men like him who are speaking out, in love and truth on a need to be less hardline when reaching out to other religions. I do disagree with the many within the movement, that want to put everyone and anyone, or any religion under the umbrella as having it right. The majority of the Christian Church still hasn't got it right, but thank God some are trying.
Brian McLaren is a leading voice of the Emerging or (Emergent) Church.
He makes a great statement (I am not quoting here but providing to you what I heard him say in a video, imperfectly I might add)
..... "Christianity is the message of reconciliation, Conservative Christians make the message about reconciliation to God, Liberal Christians make the message about reconciliation with others. For Christianity to be the message of reconciliation it must consist of both of these."
Absolutely true.
============================My comment
I love the concept of a Mission centric life in Christ in this age and this time.
We are in one of the great transitions of Society and the World.
The world is getting smaller, and to show a world Jesus Christ will take more than a few out of country missionaries, or church buildings, it will take the entire body of Christ to reach out and touch someone. I am not talking about the Social Gospel, by itself, and I am not talking about Fundalmentalism, but a Christ centered life, that is willing to die to self, even to go to the cross to love all men.
It will take the expressed life of Christ in each of us. Not doctrine, not the Four Spiritual Laws, but the living Christ in us, as us and living through us.
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Brian also provides an illustration for thought on a mission centric life.
Our personal Christian mission is like this, "think of it like a Bicycle, you have to get on the bike and start peddling, God will do the steering in the direction the Bicycle should go." (once again imperfect quoting, just how I heard it)
====Some Thoughts On Hearing Brian McLaren Teach ======================
This is not works based religion, if you know, that all you can do is peddle, it only becomes work based religion when we think we can do the steering as well.
Doesn’t this make sense, when we read, Proverbs, (paraphrased of course)
"Man makes plans, but it is God that gives direction."
We cannot be stagnant individualistic Christians any longer, we must think first of Christianity in reaching others in the terms of the world, then community.
Most of our focus has been on ourselves first and foremost, and that stems from us being raised in an individualistic society.
Yes, our relationship to God is important, but if it excludes others, where is the overall effect in salvation or obedience "to go ye into ALL THE WORLD." However contrary to the idea of just coming along accepting any religion for that matter, we are to preach the Good News, and that Good News is Christ has restored us, and given us life, and we can now live in love, and in peace, joy and righteousness. Religion, all religion, even Christian religion, doesn't have that. Only a life centered in and fellowship with Christ alone has that.
Our Christian life becomes selfish, even narcissistic, and results in an imbalanced Christian, if we say we can only have community with those who “believe’ as we do.
It makes for a church, that is exclusive and judgmental, and powerless. We aren't to exclude the pagan, but we aren't to include them either. We must look at Paul, He first converted the Gentiles, before they could be considered part of the Ekklesia, but He didn't condemn them or win them with an exclusive attitude, He first found common ground with them, then he persuaded them through discussion to Christ as the Way, the Truth and Life. Our problem hasn't been the message and Christ alone, but our problem has been two things, one in it's presentation , and two the most important one, is the contrary lifestyles we live and love others, in direct contradiction to Jesus own teachings, and one of the most important, is non- violence. Conservative Christianity and it's love of Nationalism, Zionism, and it's Western Materialism, is as or even more become more violent then the Protestants can condemn the Catholics in being against, all that opposed them. We have bit off the most important teaching expressed in the life of Christ, and that is to take up your cross and follow me, and take no vengeance, but to love your enemy and do good to those who DESPITEFULLY use you.
I think that falls into the category of radical Muslims as well. Why it is we can love Zionist, who commit autrocities as well, against Palestinian Christians, but not all men, is simply a matter of false doctrines and teachings the traditional church has shoved down the throats of "LAZY" people in the church, mostly religious people, who have spread these like they were the Gospel. They are all lies. God is love. All encompassing love, that sent his Son to die for ALL MEN. Not just Jews, and the Christian Religion, but ALL MEN!
We must be open, to the Father at all times, to teach us, not only in our personal study, but in our encounter with others. Regardless of their present belief system.
We cannot win the world for Christ by saying "ha ha, I am better than you are."
So, I say yes, community is important, whether it be two or three, or more, there should be a reaching out, not in the sense to win someone over to my argument, my theology, my truths, but a living out the truth to others, that my life reflects the generosity, love, compassion, justice and mercy of who I am, Christ in me.... and in you, and in others. A revealing of the "Christ in you," which is " the hope of glory"
We cannot do this alone, we cannot hope to do it alone, thus Christ gave gifts unto all men, so community, the Ekklesia cannot be ignored, it is within the context of that, that true spiritual life can be reflected to the world about us, as each one, reaches out to another, and that one reaches out to another and we all reach out together but we don't lock it behind the closed doors of a building, we openly engage the world about us. This is how the early Christians turned the world upside down. They didn't have to invite someone to church, for they knew they were a candle, but then they could include others from the church, as candles as well to the outside world, knowing that they didn't have all the light to give. Paul and Timothy, are great examples. It wasn't that Paul had anything to teach Timothy, I think there was times, when surely Timothy taught Paul. Paul was always learning and engaging others who were outside of the realm of the church, He engaged the pagans but found common ground, through conversation then won them to truth, by example, a life lived out in the love of Christ within.
In reaching out, to others, we cannot think we hold the corner on truth, the truth be told, if we have Christ, we all have “The Truth.
So if we do not allow others, to speak, is to say we know more then them. This is pride, stubborn, and quite honestly evil in the final outcome.
It is in the context of shared community, that we find, the gifts of each of us, building the body into one, a wholesome union in Christ.
Let me illustrate....if you light one candle and put it in a dark room, only a portion of that room will be lit up, now add another candle, and another, and soon there is enough light to dispel the darkness.
This is why there must be a coming together in common unity under the banner of Christ, not to just sit or be bystanders or be entertained, coaxed, or be an audience, but to be actively engaged, in being one of the candles.
I believe, that we must be open, and forthright, and exercise the love of Christ to obtain that. We have to be open, to the reality, that Christ is in us, as well is he is anyone else in our Christian Community.
If we show any hint, of not listening, and only talking, we shut down, the gift another may have to give us. In the same aspect. We cannot be shut down, to do so, is the same as us, shutting someone else down, we allowed our candle to be snuffed out, and that one little area of the room remains dark and undiscovered to us and to others, either way we go.
The Father designed it that way.
This is why scripture tells us what our coming together is to be like,
“One to Another'”.
Modern church and Pre-Modern Church and going way back to Medieval Church, and back further than that, after the Apostles passed away, men, thought that they knew better and tossed Christ and the Apostolic tradition out the door, for their own traditions.
I blame Martin Luther for the fact that the one man leader idea didn’t get reformed in the Reformation, it just got modified, Pope/Priest to Pastor or Bishop.
I blame Martin Luther for the Sermon. Read up if you would like to know why.
Martin is the one, that said there must be a Sermon at every church meeting. Function is one thing, title and power is another.
Our discovery of walking and abiding in Christ, must be one in which all the candles are allowed to burn, it doesn’t matter the candles beauty, it’s shape, or even it ‘s color, what matters, is that without that one little candle, one area will always remain dark in the room. Thus there is great need, for the body of Christ, when coming together to always be, in Dialegomai-discussion, not argument, on who is right or who is wrong, for each candle has it’s worth, even if it isn’t the prettiest candle or the one we would have chosen to help light the room.
We must be constantly engaged in the "one to another.”
This is why I love the Quaker’s or the old "Orthopraxy" of the Ana Baptist, is the shared responsibility, and the shared importance of each member.
This is what Paul was saying all along, in the book of Corinthians.
How could we as the church so have missed it?
Why, because men, thought they could protect the sacred teachings, instead of the Holy Spirit doing the job, and they stepped in, and the Holy Spirit, was forced out the door. It never was about the written word, it's always been about the Living Word.
The Holy Spirit has been trying to step back in ever since, there as been over the centuries of church history (the main reason most churches don't teach it) one after another, who said, "Wait, I have something to say," and the hierarchy, said, "sit down, be quiet, and learn from me."
Those that refused, were always branded as "heretics," just like Jesus. "Where does this man, get His teaching, isn’t He the carpenter’s Son?"
This is what rattled the Pharisees, the most, is Jesus teaching attracted the crowds, out of love to hear more of what he had to say, and what they could learn, they hungered to learn more of the Father's love, they hungered to engage Jesus, but the Pharisees, had to use fear manipulation and religious power to keep the crowds attention.
They could excommunicate.. been there, I know that one from personal experience!
I think we missed it because of our carnality and being human and always either wanting someone to lead us, instead of being actively engaged, as it is easier, it is lazy, and more often or not it is out of fear. We often fear that others may discover "the real us."
Isn’t that what fellowship with one another is suppose to be all about, is that discovery, so that we can both encourage and rebuke, but in mercy, in compassion, in love. So that each one can grow up in the maturity and fullness of Christ.
It is in the mouth of TWO or more witnesses, that truth is to always be established, this is the lesson from our Father, that He expressed Himself through the Son, and now expresses Himself through each one of us by the Holy Spirit.
Yet there is that relationship with the two always.
Christ neither said or did anything without the Father, and neither should we without the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is not limited to one man, or one woman.
He is working and speaking through all of us, that are His children now.
No one person has the corner on the Holy Spirit for it is impossible to put the Father in a single container, one man, one woman, and say, there He is.
Pastor worship is fatal to the body and fatal to the Pastor. I can promise you, more assemblies die because of this one thing, and more Pastors quit or are fired because of this one thing, then any other reason.
It all narrows down to who we worship, Christ the Head of the body, or just some foot or toe, of the body.. being a Pastor doesn't make you the head.
This is the grandest error of all. This is what destroys, Pastors, Evangelist, or anyone engaged in ministry, when we begin to think the adoration is deserved, and expected.
Church, as it is in most churches, is the opposite of community, except in the things that don’t matter, this is the grand error, of church hierarchy, and tradition. It's alright to share the babysitting, the Sunday School room, the meal, the cooking, the outward mission to get members, but don't you dare ask to share the teaching, preaching or the curriculum. This is why Sunday School lessons must be organized, or directed, or decided upon by "the leadership."
Any thing other is a threat to the Pastor and to the Hierarchy.
It is the antithesis of every thing, that is Christ like, or even Apostolic.
There will always be those that will want to lead, but what about the church giving this a try - "We have no leader but Jesus Christ," and we humble ourselves to admit, that we are but one candle, in a dark room, we don’t have all the answers and we sure don’t have all the light needed to light up the room. Bring on the candles! A single candle will burn out a lot quicker then several lit at intervals.
It is when as a Pastor, or leader, we step down, and humble ourselves, to accept not a role as leader, but as servant, and allow others to be the same, that the whole room will get light.
In other words the entire community of believers, and the world around them can be lit by the fire of God, and the Holy Spirit can do His grandest work.
So what am I saying here, I am saying what Paul, said. Who is Paul, Who is Apollos, - who is the Pastor?
We can say we depend on the Father to be what we must be to the congregation, but can we say, I will depend on the Father to be what the congregation is to be.
We don’t most often because we fear, we anguish and worst than that, sometimes we are too proud to relinquish our phylactery, or robes, and tassels, to step down, and say, "look, I don’t have anything more than you, I don’t have the corner on truth, we together are here in the presence of The Truth and as a whole, He is the truth, and we will rely on Him."
Let us no longer, shut the grand doors of the gate, of the communion of believers coming together in fellowship, and let us quit telling the Holy Spirit, He will have to wait outside, until the service is over, or He can come in, as long, as you follow my directions, my program, my doctrine, my creeds, my belief system, my, my, my.... the "my" is what is killing the body and the long run will kill you.
Can’t we see, how in doing this, we have now stood in the place of God, declaring ourselves to be God, when all along, He is sitting there in the congregation before you, and in you, waiting, waiting, for us as Pastors to sit down and shut up, and listen...
We might just light another candle in the darkroom and then a whole bunch of candles get lit on fire by a sharing of the flame of the work of the Holy Spirit in each persons life.
I say, yes there is a time for teaching, or preaching but it must be a group decision, once the candles know how to burn on their own, but this doesn’t mean all we do is talk , we teach in the same manner Jesus did.
Jesus gave a story, He then would ask questions, then he would engage in conversation, and seeds were planted. - Thanks Brian for that one.
How can a Pastor or anyone learn, if we don’t hear. If all we do, is listen to our own taped sermon, or our own voice, to see how grand we sound, or persuasive, we miss out, on what was received, from what we said.
We wonder, why when we have worked so hard to deliver a SERMON, that seems to us, should effect everyone and we believe that it expresses the heart of God, that the body, sits there half asleep, half engaged in what is said, and half listening.
Ask most people when they leave, what the sermon, was about, they will tell you, "I don't know, but it was good."
We would never sit still for a college class where question aren’t asked, and answers given, and there is an exchange between students in Professors, why do we think that the Father would design fellowship to be ‘sit there be quiet, don’t ask questions."
This is not the way Jesus engaged the world or His own disciples. He engaged them into conversation, thought, questions, and conversation.
Jesus would start with a story an illustration.
The best teachers are one’s that give an illustration- a story, then ask questions of the pupils, then allows for conversation, to allow the seeds of truth to sink in.
Revelational truth that only the Holy Spirit can provide each of us is what truly teaches us.
Authoritarian teaching, teaches nothing but authority, engaged conversation teaches love.
You would be amazed at how much, so many of the saints you thought less of, in the assembly, that perhaps had more insight, more spiritual awareness, more growth, even then yourself at times. I speak that from former house church and organic fellowship experience.
The call for the Post Modern church is this, for it’s leaders for once to be real servants, and learn to listen, to shut up when necessary, and open the doors to others to speak, to teach, to preach, to sing, whatever the Holy Spirit would desire to do, within the context of reason and order.
I don’t believe in a bunch of chaos, but when organic church is practiced, it rarely happens, this is where, anyone of a group of people, not just the Pastor, can put the brakes on if led by the Spirit of God to do so.
I think scripture makes it clear, that more than one can prophesy, I am not talking about what is defined as Charismatic prophesying, but what is defined by scripture, "The Spirit of Prophecy, IS THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST"....that’s why I love God’s Word, is that you will find order in it, that is clearly spelled out, if we will only look for God’s definitions in it, and not our own.
Let each one speak, the other sit down, and let the others judge. This is not a verbal bout, over whether it was right or wrong. It is the asking what was said encouraging, correcting, or teaching on our testimony of Jesus Christ, then it should be judged quietly by each heart, and then if someone has something to say, let them speak, let them engage on what was said, how it effected them.
Did it harm, then say so, did it encourage, then say so, did it correct us, then say so, did it give us a teaching, then say it and share it.
Was it in line with the Father of all Love and Creation. If the body has the Holy Spirit, and they are truly the body, there will be no bickering, no condemning, no putting down of others, but all will be done in love.
This is where the Holy Spirit will use someone I promise to speak out and say so, and it will be in union with what the Holy Spirit is saying in the others hearts as well. Do we trust Him?
Oh, what if I have a song to sing? Can I sing it, from my heart?
This is the big question for the Pastor and the Body to ask themselves,
Do we trust the Holy Spirit to be what Jesus said He would be, that He would guide us into all truth. He would speak of Jesus. Isn't that what we come together for, is to see the reality of a Resurrected Jesus, in each of us?
I can promise you, I have more than once tolerated sermons, and speakers, who were both off Scripture by a mile, and harmed more than they won over anyone with love.
Why? No one dared challenge, them, they are the “PASTOR”.
The man of God, the man with the Oracle of God.
Thinking like this is purely pagan in origin and is what creates the Jim Jones, and other false prophets, and teachers we here of today.
I pray, that this one thing, will be what the Post Modern Church will get, that they will finally catch onto, is the elimination of leaders and instead the making of servants and disciples, who are filled with Spirit,and the Wisdom of Christ.
I pray that Jesus Christ must be the central truth and means to salvation, and no not all religion, matter of fact, no religion, leads to God the Father, and that it's not a matter of being an organization that is willing to except anyone for anything they believe, but about being a person, that Christ lives through us, as us and in us, then He can do the soul winning, the drawing all men unto Himself, and we won't have to alienate others, but fact be known, there is no "church" - no ekklesia, without Christ as the central truth, Buddha, Confucious, none of those religions will make the "called out one's of God. They can be drawn in, loved in, and even taught in, but without love, what good is winning someone to a doctrine, rather than a person, and this absolute has to stand, to be called "Christian", Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
When God works, we rest, when we work, He can't and won't rest until we learn to allow Him to take the reigns of all of our life, individually and in community.
Let us in the coming days, not experiment, not create cell churches, not start groups, or even new movements, let us come together as the Early body of Christ did, in harmony, in love and in equality, open to allow the candles to be lit. I believe in my heart, that we could once again, turn the world upside down for Jesus!
Let's quit experimentation, let's abandon dead works, elitist leaders, love of money and power, and let's make Christ and His people- all equal, and love the foundation of all we think and do, and there won't be any need for a new movement, or the emergent church or the old church, there will be Christ! Standing out as a light to the world, and the salt of this earth that every religion can see, and they will be drawn to that light, and desire it above all things, as well.
Doctor J.
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Showing posts with label Emerging Church. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Emerging Church. Show all posts
Thursday, November 4, 2010
Wednesday, November 3, 2010
The Emergent Church
I think the Father is using this to draw the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy away from set in stone doctrine or traditional doctrines not based on the Word of God, and even practices which aren't based on the Apostolic tradition, it will make them think I pray and move more toward the centrality of Christ and Him alone along with community, and action toward the world.’ Ah! in other words, let’s let the Spirit of God to do the teaching, and let’s live it out in community, and toward all the world.
This is a very good thing, because as Post Modern , it is calling on the Orthodox to a more Generous Orthodoxy. It is a break away from the scientific, rationality of the period of Enlightenment, which is why so many people are stuck in trying to figure the Father and Jesus out, rationally rather than living in Him experientially and leaving it at that. One's Orthodoxy is narrowed down to just words, but to the life within, the life of Christ within them. Now there is an orthodoxy, don't get me wrong, I don't buy the entire emergent churches message, in some of what I am hearing. I think yes, we must be absolute that having been born of the Spirit and Christ being that resurrected life, we must believe He is the only way to eternal life, which isn't defined by the afterlife effect, to often we have traditionally sold this to mean- heaven, but Christ defined it as this - to know the one true God and His Son whom He sent, Jesus Christ, of course then entails more than a head or doctrinal knowledge or asset to who he is, but a real life, where the rubber meets the road, intimate relationship with His presence in our life, which is lived out in God's defined love toward others.
It is like I have said many times. Each Christian man’s truth is his truth, but that truth isn’t related to which doctrine, eschatology, which one is absolutely correct, or truth, Truth is only embodied in Jesus Christ alone, and that relationship to Him and His life within you, though it may draw you in inwardly to see yourself for who you really are, and why you need Christ, but it will not remain your individual little box to put God in, but if it is truth it will take you outwardly to confront and engage the world around you in love and compassion, mercy and God’s justice not men’s concept of it. It will lead others to Christ, without having to use words to condemn, but love to win.
It is for this reason I no longer accept the Penal Substitution atonement as absolute, but rely and believe more in the Christus Victor, atonement. Explanations for what the Father did through the Son is still mere words, and concepts of men. I think Christus Victor atonement brings and relates more to who the REAL HEAVENLY FATHER IS by recognition from the story, and my experience, and not the doctrines of men.
The Penal Substitution Atonement Theorem to me is based on the fear of God, like in the Old Testament, rather than the love of God as expressed in the New Testament. "Perfect love casts out fear."
Anyway read this -
Brian D. McLaren has written several books, the first one I have peeked at on Amazon, is “The Secret Message of Jesus, and this one http://www.amazon.com/Generous-Orthodoxy-conservative-contemplative-fundamentalist/dp/0310258030/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288804759&sr=1-2#reader_0310258030
Actually he has written several books not just these few. I still see the greatest failure of the Orthodox is to judge those that aren’t or who to try to reshape Orthodoxy to perhaps fit society (Materialism), but in the end only reduce Christ to a feel good sermon, or less than who he is, and they create a God once more in their image, rather then the image provided to us in the Flesh- Jesus Christ.
At least with the Emerging Church, they are not approaching God, centered on Orthodoxy ( defining what is acceptable and true doctrine of which no matter what or how you live, if you believe these things, then you are OK with me) but on Orthopraxy ( the living out in practice of the truth- the life of Christ within)
See Orthodoxy may hold a few tenants of definable truth but the only real truth is Jesus Christ being the central one, but those tenants of faith and doctrine have changed over history, and time, and are still argued today. Calvinist, versus Armenians, Catholics versus Protestants, Universalism, Limited Grace, etc.
Whereas, the life, the action, the move, the missional, the doing, has never changed, for we cannot argue or disagree on the story of Jesus, or the life he lived. The division comes down to when we try to explain in inept words, rather than just allowing the Spirit to do it, in us, as us, and through us.
Don't get me wrong, to say you can have that intimate knowledge of God, through religion any religion other than a relationship with Christ, I don't believe that.
I don't believe in the Emergent Churches, lack to define this, and don't accept their idea, that all religion, can get you to the Father. Matter of fact I believe even Christian " religion" will not get you to the Father or the Son, there must be genuine change of heart, and a new birth from the incoming presence of Christ, coming to live within you. Now no matter what the Emergent Church may say, if we let that go, then you can't even be a "Christian." You might be religious, and even globally religious, is what I saw at the Glenn Beck rally- which I didn't agree with. He is buying the one world religion baloney, that I fear the Emergent Church may sadly be moving toward. We don't need a one world religion, we need people throughout the world to be born of Him!
We must not be tossed about by every wind of doctrine, and the way to avoid that is to make Christ center of it all. One must eliminate the questions, of whose, right on all the issues of eschatology, theology, etc. and get to the basic, the center of what faith is, it is a relationship with Christ, an experiential one as well as the story as revealed in Scripture, but that doesn’t remain in a inward focus, I’m right and everybody else is wrong, it must result in a reaching out to a world that is hurt, lost, and in need, but not to bring them in for our specific doctrine, or orthodoxy or even our so called “truths” but, in bringing God’s justice to a world that doesn’t know it. This becomes the revealing of the real Jesus, who reveals the real Father. His justice is compassion and mercy, not judgment and condemnation, or dividing up in little groups of creed or doctrine, or even eschatology for that matter, there must be a hands across the table compassion to everyone, for this was the life that Jesus lived, right down to what took him to the cross.
We avoid this in our lives, because to be radically different, not necessarily in our statements of faith, or creed or doctrine, but in the way that we differ is our absolute surrender of love toward the Father, by the Son, to the absolute surrender to love others, at no matter what the cost, even the Cross.
This is why we generally avoid, love, mercy, or even justice, is because it will cost us to much, it is to take up our Cross daily and follow Him, because in the end, it all leads us to Calvary, but what better, then to die to ourselves, and the way this world does things, and do it the Jesus way. What better than to die at that cross with Him, and see the morning dawn in our resurrection. Our true resurrection as we become Him, in life, word and deed,
We cannot discount the thousands of Christians, missionaries, Pastors, and others who have lived that life, and even given up their lives for the sake of others, for though they may have had titles, and even been called great by men, if we look at them, many of them carefully and reserve judgment for God, we will see, their hands scarred like Jesus. We will see a life, that touched the lives of others in ways and means that you and I have never approached yet. Thus do we discount the many that maybe they weren't Orthodox in the sense of what we or the group we belong to defines it thus. Protestants in general will never see the good, of the Mother Teresa's or the St. Francis of Assisi's because they hold to much prejudice against Catholicism. Yet, their lives, regardless of trying to define or judge what their reasons were for doing it, by their Orthodoxy, we must and have to say, the results were real because of their Orthopraxy, the lives they touched and lifted from out of despair to hope. This is the life of Jesus, not some sitting in our living rooms and placating ourselves, with an hour of CBN or TBN. It's not an hour of Sunday sermon, 10 minutes of Bible reading, and ten percent of our money, it's not a prayer before our meals or bedtime, it is the life of Christ, lived out in us, as us, and through us, and all that we do and say. That message is love for God and love for others above all things, and to love like Jesus loved will cost you everything, even your Orthodoxy at times.
I am not disparaging those who may do so, for they may just be right where God wants them for the moment, but if that moment, turns into a lifetime, can we say, that they had true faith. For Faith without works is DEAD! This is where the rubber meets the road.
We can go to church on Sunday, but when our lives are lived out just like the rest of the world who live in despair and hopelessness, because we are individualistic, materialistic, and self worshiping, and self serving, what good is our faith. What if Jesus would have remained a Carpenter, and not have changed his occupation to Fisher of men and become the Itinerent Preacher who empowered the powerless, the unloved, the dredges of society, and just preached, and that was it, and then died. Would we still see God as love? No, as the people said, he spoke with authority, not like the Pharisees, and the Scribes, you can talk all day long about love, but unless I see it, in the love that is expressed as Jesus expressed it, your words, deafen me. Jesus words didn't deafen the Pharisees, they challenged them, they chose to put their own fingers in their ears, for to listen would have required change, loss of title, loss of recognition, loss of being self righteous to become humbled and give up the things so cherished, that they valued their lives on, their sense of pride.
They are as most of us, we dare not walk away from all that we own and have, and give our lives, to reaching out to those less fortunate then we are - why others would say were foolish, irresponsible, and all the things, that put man in bondage and offer us no freedom at all of our Spirit to break away from the commonplace, the common sense. Thus the rich young ruler could live the Orthodox, the keeping of the Law, but he could not go and sell all that he had, and give it to the poor, for that would have cost him everything, thus it is often our comforts in life, that quench the Spirit of God in our lives, to really know and experience the Kingdom of God.
Yes, there may be many who did things for the wrong motive, but who are we to judge what their motives were. If the fruit is good, so isn’t the tree, if they be not against us, as Jesus told the disciples, they are for us.... This is what we must look at, there are Catholics, Protestants, and others, of all groups in some way , at sometime, that had individuals within them, even as today there are, that knew, Christ was the center of it all, and that, living that out, was to die to self, and live for God, right down to the cross, so even great saints of the church, like St. Francis of Assisi, understood that, whether he was Catholic or not, he gave his life in love, to the centrality of Christ, in love toward his fellow man, especially those, like Christ did, the very one’s the world rejects, hates, judges, disdains, the dredge of society, the poor, the downtrodden, the unsuccessful, the prisoner, the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, this is the life of Christ lived out, not in an individual cocoon of self righteousness, or self assertiveness, that I am correct and everyone else is wrong, it is the fruit of giving in missional life, that proves the tree. The tree is worthless, if our life, is just another, business as usual even if we go about saying the name of Jesus or arguing a new or old doctrine, what worth is it? What good does it do? If we do not offer the hope, and the reality of love to those we meet, in a sacrificial way, for to do good to those who deserve no good, is to definitely, find ourselves, in precarious situations in the eyes of the world, matter of fact, it will stir up the anger, of those who have bit into and lived the lie of the ages, of good versus evil, rather than holiness, which is only achieved by a life lost to Christ and to the Cross. This is the only resurrection that can be achieved, is when we die to us, no matter how painful or dreadful, we lay down our lives for others in the larger community of the world, then just to think, that we really are doing something, by going to work everyday, and bringing home a dime or two. Though for some that is fine, but it is what do we do with that dime or two, are we willing to let it go, to reach out, and lift up those without hope or sustenance. Do we only take enough as Paul taught to be content with food and clothing, or have we drowned out the cry of the hurting, the loss, those without any hope, in exchange for our own comforts, of society and family.. any real faith, or faith that is real, will be expressed in your personal loss, and someone else's gain.
This cannot be done alone, it does take Community, and a heart for others, but it must be a heart, not superficial or an attempt to appease God or men, but in the reality of the life of Christ in us, that moves us, for this is the work of the Spirit in our lives.
In every case, we see, where the Spirit of God, is, He is gentle but forceful, silent but active, always creating life anew. Christ is the center of all of it, this is what I believe and though not in perfection have reached for constantly, to be continually broken and of a contrite heart, so that He can renew, create, and move within me, to live out His life first and foremost through me, to a world, that needs light and salt. Light can hurt our eyes, and salt can sting, it is only when we know the benefit of these, that light becomes good to us, it dispels the darkness, not just for us, but to all of those around us, and salt, is healing, and flavorable, and it feeds the spirit, and flavors the spirit, and brings, flavor to the stale food of life that many around us, may be experiencing. I wished I could only put in words, what I feel in my heart, and what I know to be true, but then, if I could, someone would turn it into a doctrine, or orthodoxy, or creed or doctrine, and it would become the yeast of the Pharisees, this is where Theology has erred, it has attempted with scientific reason, most limited, by the human mind and linguistics, to put into words what can only be known in the heart, and this is why, we have such division, because each man tries to find the right one, that points to his present experience, with God, and there is no, right one way to express the truths of God, because the Father encompasses all of human experience, travail, pain, wonder, love, art and more. He is in all through all things of the human experience, relating Himself to us, and we must never sit down, and draw up, a decree.. of who he is, or what he is, or how he is, but only look to the one, that was He- Jesus Christ, what does the story say, it’s not about the Words as much as what the story tells us, about the Father as lived out, and by the Son, why He was here. This is where we miss it, we don’t see the story, we see, words, and we try to encapsulate and extrapolate, on these, instead, of allowing them to be the very soul and heart of the Father, our Creator, the one who is love without bounds, mercy without judgement, compassion without condemnation, He is always reaching out, touching and healing the sick, making the blind see, opening the eyes of the deaf, casting out the evil that binds men, raising the dead, feeding the hungry, this is God, expressed through the flesh and blood of His Son, and how He expresses himself, in those who are born of His Spirit, washed in that precious blood, crucified to self, raised in newness of life. This is what effects the world around us, and we often don't understand, why some people seemed to be blessed, when they in our Orthodox opinion are so evil.
See we have put the Father in a box, of good versus evil, rather than that which the story tell us, For Christ died for YOU and ME and ALL while we were yet sinners. For Jesus said, He gives rain to the just and the unjust. Be ye therefore perfect as your Heavenly Father. How?
Treat Orthopraxy as more important then Orthodoxy, and life changes will come, you will begin to love as He did, the undeserving, and perhaps even learn to love yourself. In truth, when Christ is lived in us, as us, and through us, we can say, we are Orthodox, and isn't always going to be down the line, of any particular denomination, creed, sect or other. It will be in line with the life of Christ in us.
It is not an easy road, it is the road to Calvary, but it is easy, because He is inside, we can draw upon Him, wait in Him, live in Him, but it ALL comes down, to Him! See Jesus is Lord, not you, not I, not Catholicism, or Protestantism or any of our "ism's" - He is Lord!
Joe
Your brother in Christ and in Him alone always,
This is a very good thing, because as Post Modern , it is calling on the Orthodox to a more Generous Orthodoxy. It is a break away from the scientific, rationality of the period of Enlightenment, which is why so many people are stuck in trying to figure the Father and Jesus out, rationally rather than living in Him experientially and leaving it at that. One's Orthodoxy is narrowed down to just words, but to the life within, the life of Christ within them. Now there is an orthodoxy, don't get me wrong, I don't buy the entire emergent churches message, in some of what I am hearing. I think yes, we must be absolute that having been born of the Spirit and Christ being that resurrected life, we must believe He is the only way to eternal life, which isn't defined by the afterlife effect, to often we have traditionally sold this to mean- heaven, but Christ defined it as this - to know the one true God and His Son whom He sent, Jesus Christ, of course then entails more than a head or doctrinal knowledge or asset to who he is, but a real life, where the rubber meets the road, intimate relationship with His presence in our life, which is lived out in God's defined love toward others.
It is like I have said many times. Each Christian man’s truth is his truth, but that truth isn’t related to which doctrine, eschatology, which one is absolutely correct, or truth, Truth is only embodied in Jesus Christ alone, and that relationship to Him and His life within you, though it may draw you in inwardly to see yourself for who you really are, and why you need Christ, but it will not remain your individual little box to put God in, but if it is truth it will take you outwardly to confront and engage the world around you in love and compassion, mercy and God’s justice not men’s concept of it. It will lead others to Christ, without having to use words to condemn, but love to win.
It is for this reason I no longer accept the Penal Substitution atonement as absolute, but rely and believe more in the Christus Victor, atonement. Explanations for what the Father did through the Son is still mere words, and concepts of men. I think Christus Victor atonement brings and relates more to who the REAL HEAVENLY FATHER IS by recognition from the story, and my experience, and not the doctrines of men.
The Penal Substitution Atonement Theorem to me is based on the fear of God, like in the Old Testament, rather than the love of God as expressed in the New Testament. "Perfect love casts out fear."
Anyway read this -
Brian D. McLaren has written several books, the first one I have peeked at on Amazon, is “The Secret Message of Jesus, and this one http://www.amazon.com/Generous-Orthodoxy-conservative-contemplative-fundamentalist/dp/0310258030/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288804759&sr=1-2#reader_0310258030
Actually he has written several books not just these few. I still see the greatest failure of the Orthodox is to judge those that aren’t or who to try to reshape Orthodoxy to perhaps fit society (Materialism), but in the end only reduce Christ to a feel good sermon, or less than who he is, and they create a God once more in their image, rather then the image provided to us in the Flesh- Jesus Christ.
At least with the Emerging Church, they are not approaching God, centered on Orthodoxy ( defining what is acceptable and true doctrine of which no matter what or how you live, if you believe these things, then you are OK with me) but on Orthopraxy ( the living out in practice of the truth- the life of Christ within)
See Orthodoxy may hold a few tenants of definable truth but the only real truth is Jesus Christ being the central one, but those tenants of faith and doctrine have changed over history, and time, and are still argued today. Calvinist, versus Armenians, Catholics versus Protestants, Universalism, Limited Grace, etc.
Whereas, the life, the action, the move, the missional, the doing, has never changed, for we cannot argue or disagree on the story of Jesus, or the life he lived. The division comes down to when we try to explain in inept words, rather than just allowing the Spirit to do it, in us, as us, and through us.
Don't get me wrong, to say you can have that intimate knowledge of God, through religion any religion other than a relationship with Christ, I don't believe that.
I don't believe in the Emergent Churches, lack to define this, and don't accept their idea, that all religion, can get you to the Father. Matter of fact I believe even Christian " religion" will not get you to the Father or the Son, there must be genuine change of heart, and a new birth from the incoming presence of Christ, coming to live within you. Now no matter what the Emergent Church may say, if we let that go, then you can't even be a "Christian." You might be religious, and even globally religious, is what I saw at the Glenn Beck rally- which I didn't agree with. He is buying the one world religion baloney, that I fear the Emergent Church may sadly be moving toward. We don't need a one world religion, we need people throughout the world to be born of Him!
We must not be tossed about by every wind of doctrine, and the way to avoid that is to make Christ center of it all. One must eliminate the questions, of whose, right on all the issues of eschatology, theology, etc. and get to the basic, the center of what faith is, it is a relationship with Christ, an experiential one as well as the story as revealed in Scripture, but that doesn’t remain in a inward focus, I’m right and everybody else is wrong, it must result in a reaching out to a world that is hurt, lost, and in need, but not to bring them in for our specific doctrine, or orthodoxy or even our so called “truths” but, in bringing God’s justice to a world that doesn’t know it. This becomes the revealing of the real Jesus, who reveals the real Father. His justice is compassion and mercy, not judgment and condemnation, or dividing up in little groups of creed or doctrine, or even eschatology for that matter, there must be a hands across the table compassion to everyone, for this was the life that Jesus lived, right down to what took him to the cross.
We avoid this in our lives, because to be radically different, not necessarily in our statements of faith, or creed or doctrine, but in the way that we differ is our absolute surrender of love toward the Father, by the Son, to the absolute surrender to love others, at no matter what the cost, even the Cross.
This is why we generally avoid, love, mercy, or even justice, is because it will cost us to much, it is to take up our Cross daily and follow Him, because in the end, it all leads us to Calvary, but what better, then to die to ourselves, and the way this world does things, and do it the Jesus way. What better than to die at that cross with Him, and see the morning dawn in our resurrection. Our true resurrection as we become Him, in life, word and deed,
We cannot discount the thousands of Christians, missionaries, Pastors, and others who have lived that life, and even given up their lives for the sake of others, for though they may have had titles, and even been called great by men, if we look at them, many of them carefully and reserve judgment for God, we will see, their hands scarred like Jesus. We will see a life, that touched the lives of others in ways and means that you and I have never approached yet. Thus do we discount the many that maybe they weren't Orthodox in the sense of what we or the group we belong to defines it thus. Protestants in general will never see the good, of the Mother Teresa's or the St. Francis of Assisi's because they hold to much prejudice against Catholicism. Yet, their lives, regardless of trying to define or judge what their reasons were for doing it, by their Orthodoxy, we must and have to say, the results were real because of their Orthopraxy, the lives they touched and lifted from out of despair to hope. This is the life of Jesus, not some sitting in our living rooms and placating ourselves, with an hour of CBN or TBN. It's not an hour of Sunday sermon, 10 minutes of Bible reading, and ten percent of our money, it's not a prayer before our meals or bedtime, it is the life of Christ, lived out in us, as us, and through us, and all that we do and say. That message is love for God and love for others above all things, and to love like Jesus loved will cost you everything, even your Orthodoxy at times.
I am not disparaging those who may do so, for they may just be right where God wants them for the moment, but if that moment, turns into a lifetime, can we say, that they had true faith. For Faith without works is DEAD! This is where the rubber meets the road.
We can go to church on Sunday, but when our lives are lived out just like the rest of the world who live in despair and hopelessness, because we are individualistic, materialistic, and self worshiping, and self serving, what good is our faith. What if Jesus would have remained a Carpenter, and not have changed his occupation to Fisher of men and become the Itinerent Preacher who empowered the powerless, the unloved, the dredges of society, and just preached, and that was it, and then died. Would we still see God as love? No, as the people said, he spoke with authority, not like the Pharisees, and the Scribes, you can talk all day long about love, but unless I see it, in the love that is expressed as Jesus expressed it, your words, deafen me. Jesus words didn't deafen the Pharisees, they challenged them, they chose to put their own fingers in their ears, for to listen would have required change, loss of title, loss of recognition, loss of being self righteous to become humbled and give up the things so cherished, that they valued their lives on, their sense of pride.
They are as most of us, we dare not walk away from all that we own and have, and give our lives, to reaching out to those less fortunate then we are - why others would say were foolish, irresponsible, and all the things, that put man in bondage and offer us no freedom at all of our Spirit to break away from the commonplace, the common sense. Thus the rich young ruler could live the Orthodox, the keeping of the Law, but he could not go and sell all that he had, and give it to the poor, for that would have cost him everything, thus it is often our comforts in life, that quench the Spirit of God in our lives, to really know and experience the Kingdom of God.
Yes, there may be many who did things for the wrong motive, but who are we to judge what their motives were. If the fruit is good, so isn’t the tree, if they be not against us, as Jesus told the disciples, they are for us.... This is what we must look at, there are Catholics, Protestants, and others, of all groups in some way , at sometime, that had individuals within them, even as today there are, that knew, Christ was the center of it all, and that, living that out, was to die to self, and live for God, right down to the cross, so even great saints of the church, like St. Francis of Assisi, understood that, whether he was Catholic or not, he gave his life in love, to the centrality of Christ, in love toward his fellow man, especially those, like Christ did, the very one’s the world rejects, hates, judges, disdains, the dredge of society, the poor, the downtrodden, the unsuccessful, the prisoner, the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, this is the life of Christ lived out, not in an individual cocoon of self righteousness, or self assertiveness, that I am correct and everyone else is wrong, it is the fruit of giving in missional life, that proves the tree. The tree is worthless, if our life, is just another, business as usual even if we go about saying the name of Jesus or arguing a new or old doctrine, what worth is it? What good does it do? If we do not offer the hope, and the reality of love to those we meet, in a sacrificial way, for to do good to those who deserve no good, is to definitely, find ourselves, in precarious situations in the eyes of the world, matter of fact, it will stir up the anger, of those who have bit into and lived the lie of the ages, of good versus evil, rather than holiness, which is only achieved by a life lost to Christ and to the Cross. This is the only resurrection that can be achieved, is when we die to us, no matter how painful or dreadful, we lay down our lives for others in the larger community of the world, then just to think, that we really are doing something, by going to work everyday, and bringing home a dime or two. Though for some that is fine, but it is what do we do with that dime or two, are we willing to let it go, to reach out, and lift up those without hope or sustenance. Do we only take enough as Paul taught to be content with food and clothing, or have we drowned out the cry of the hurting, the loss, those without any hope, in exchange for our own comforts, of society and family.. any real faith, or faith that is real, will be expressed in your personal loss, and someone else's gain.
This cannot be done alone, it does take Community, and a heart for others, but it must be a heart, not superficial or an attempt to appease God or men, but in the reality of the life of Christ in us, that moves us, for this is the work of the Spirit in our lives.
In every case, we see, where the Spirit of God, is, He is gentle but forceful, silent but active, always creating life anew. Christ is the center of all of it, this is what I believe and though not in perfection have reached for constantly, to be continually broken and of a contrite heart, so that He can renew, create, and move within me, to live out His life first and foremost through me, to a world, that needs light and salt. Light can hurt our eyes, and salt can sting, it is only when we know the benefit of these, that light becomes good to us, it dispels the darkness, not just for us, but to all of those around us, and salt, is healing, and flavorable, and it feeds the spirit, and flavors the spirit, and brings, flavor to the stale food of life that many around us, may be experiencing. I wished I could only put in words, what I feel in my heart, and what I know to be true, but then, if I could, someone would turn it into a doctrine, or orthodoxy, or creed or doctrine, and it would become the yeast of the Pharisees, this is where Theology has erred, it has attempted with scientific reason, most limited, by the human mind and linguistics, to put into words what can only be known in the heart, and this is why, we have such division, because each man tries to find the right one, that points to his present experience, with God, and there is no, right one way to express the truths of God, because the Father encompasses all of human experience, travail, pain, wonder, love, art and more. He is in all through all things of the human experience, relating Himself to us, and we must never sit down, and draw up, a decree.. of who he is, or what he is, or how he is, but only look to the one, that was He- Jesus Christ, what does the story say, it’s not about the Words as much as what the story tells us, about the Father as lived out, and by the Son, why He was here. This is where we miss it, we don’t see the story, we see, words, and we try to encapsulate and extrapolate, on these, instead, of allowing them to be the very soul and heart of the Father, our Creator, the one who is love without bounds, mercy without judgement, compassion without condemnation, He is always reaching out, touching and healing the sick, making the blind see, opening the eyes of the deaf, casting out the evil that binds men, raising the dead, feeding the hungry, this is God, expressed through the flesh and blood of His Son, and how He expresses himself, in those who are born of His Spirit, washed in that precious blood, crucified to self, raised in newness of life. This is what effects the world around us, and we often don't understand, why some people seemed to be blessed, when they in our Orthodox opinion are so evil.
See we have put the Father in a box, of good versus evil, rather than that which the story tell us, For Christ died for YOU and ME and ALL while we were yet sinners. For Jesus said, He gives rain to the just and the unjust. Be ye therefore perfect as your Heavenly Father. How?
Treat Orthopraxy as more important then Orthodoxy, and life changes will come, you will begin to love as He did, the undeserving, and perhaps even learn to love yourself. In truth, when Christ is lived in us, as us, and through us, we can say, we are Orthodox, and isn't always going to be down the line, of any particular denomination, creed, sect or other. It will be in line with the life of Christ in us.
It is not an easy road, it is the road to Calvary, but it is easy, because He is inside, we can draw upon Him, wait in Him, live in Him, but it ALL comes down, to Him! See Jesus is Lord, not you, not I, not Catholicism, or Protestantism or any of our "ism's" - He is Lord!
Joe
Your brother in Christ and in Him alone always,
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